The Road To Guantanamo
at 23:30
Anyone not already outraged by the treatment meted out by the military, both British and American on our citizens from Tipton should have been watching:
The Road To Guantanamo: - Channel 4's new drama from multi award-winning film director Michael Winterbottom – The Road to Guantanamo – created huge international impact and won the prestigious Silver Bear for Direction for Winterbottom and Mat Whitecross in competition at The 56th Berlin International Film Festival.
...tonight.
You can say all you want about the necessity to do certain pretty nasty things in time of war, about rules of evidence not functioning properly in a foreign country you are trying to subdue, and who knows whether the lads from Tipton are telling the God's honest truth (though personally I am more inclined to believe them than all the FUD that comes out of the security services), but it seems to me that heads should roll for their treatment and that of others still in GTMO and other members of the gulag archipelago.
Impeaching Blair is too good for him. I hope he's watching and can still say what he said to Parky last week about conscience and being judged by history and his God.
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Absolutely. That is what comes across so briliantly in the film. Sadism. When I look through Republican blogs I often see a common mentality.
America" in the mood for "revenge" post 9/11 genuinely seems to be "they" attacked "us" so we round "them" up, regardless of guilt or innocence.
I don't think it is just a missing "presumption of innocence". I can totally understand that there must have been a huge yearning in the US Military for the Tipton 3 to be linked to Al-Quaida.
Layers of removal from a situation seem to make accusations of terrorism firmer regardless of whether they are true or not.
I got this looking into the Hamza case. The closer I got to the people who knew him the best the more disturbingly mellow they seemed to be and the more hollow the waves of anti-Hamza stuff in the press seemed to be."
comment
At some points in the programme, particularly when the guards physically beat a person who was obviously autistic or mentally disturbed, I felt sick to the stomach.
However, as the programme ended the truth emerged. It was interesting to see the macho" nature of the Tipton three, one of them saying he was stronger for the experience.
In a similar way to the shoe bomber, these were people with a criminal history when immans and mullahs worked through the prison to recruit them.
We have to look at the programme in perspective. What would you do and how would you deal with the situation? How would you "punish" or "gain intelligence" from the detainees? In every system you need people with the psychology to do these things. Just because you and I viewing the programme feel sick to the stomach, that only means that we could not work at Guantanamo. We could never break these men. If the place had been really bad with torture and so forth then these people would have broken down (and I am sure many have).
For me the bottom line is this. These people born in Pakistan and other such countries moved for economic reasons to the UK in large numbers. The UK allowed them to stay and treated them as indigenous Britons with all the rights (unlike how Germans treated for example the Turks). In return these people demonstrate some silly Danish cartoons with placcards advocating beheadings and violence. In return a great or substantial percentage of them support or sympathize with terrorist activities (many young muslims in Birmingham, Tipton, East Midlands, Yorkshire and all over the UK do). They attack the UK with suicide bombers and blow up and bring down the world trade center, and so what are we to do about this phenomenon that was imported into the UK with the immigration of these people? This is a big problem. It is similar to the problem caused by the immigration of Sicilians to the USA (that problem is called the "mafia"). Immigrants bring another culture and foreign problems and some are very significant such as this extreme religion called Islam."
But how do you find what a terrorist is? And if you think you've found one, how do you treat them?
I'm with you Jock. What Jihadi would be rapping M and M? Loads of these kids go off the rails in their teens same as white kids. its a British ritual.
Fantastic film.
you're anonymous mate can fantasise along with the marines. he's right in a way though. How can you tell who is a radicalise Muslim who wants to kill you?
Anyway here is Martin Mubanga rapping. he seems like a nice guy too."
Nonsense.
These were scally kids, second generation UK citizens, who appear to have spent their days in Britain getting up to what their white kid colleagues have taught them, usually to the deep shame and consternation of more devout parents.
Went off to a stag night and see their mate get married, go on a road trip (much, I would imagine, as a non-practicing Christian might visit the Vatican the first time they visited Rome - out of fascination as much as anything else), and were caught up in the fighting.
If they have been radicalised (and actually they didn't say that - one of them said he prayed more and tried to be a better Muslim - they didn't come across at all as vengeful) it was easy to see why. And the tales of unjustly imprisoned famous Christians facing an unknown and potentially short future should show that this is quite a natural response to the sort of things that appeared to be put on them.
It seems to me that they were not the sharpest tools in the tool box, in fact were somewhat endearingly ordinary scally kids who had learned something trying to make sense of their treatment.
It would have been a no-brainer to realise that someone with such a police record as was read out at one point was not what anyone could call a particularly devout Muslim, let alone one with much of an interest in things beyond their own lives.
The other chap, last year, Moazzam Begg, was clearly an intelligent, thoughtful and quite pious person. We have countless generations of Christian missionaries who would have done what he decided to do by going on humanitarian relief work for his fellow Muslims in Bosnia, and many who have got radicalised to such causes as a result of what they have seen in that kind of work.
Peace, that was an amazing documentary its on again tomorrow on More4
Was brilliant to read your response on it, and these comments, I am a Muslim female living in the UK, was born here, bred here and jope to die here!
This docu made me feel ashamed of the American and British governments, how Balir can constantly stand up for bush shocks me!
Peace, I hope to come back and read some more from you :)
Peace
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How can you tell who is a radicalise Muslim who wants to kill you?
Lame answer, perhaps, but presume innocence would be a good start. And do the job properly; it is not good news for everyone else there not from a country as sophisticated as the UK, but it would have taken minutes to verify important parts of these guys stories - from police records (one of them was on community service order right the way through a year in which he was simultaneously supposed to be training with the Taleban in Afghanistan, passports, flight records, visas and so on could all have verified their story before they reached Bagram.
Treating people with some basic dignity until you have verified whether they are a threat or not is not difficult either and not a danger. It looks to me as if you need to be a sadist to make it in military intelligence. Most of what they went through was gratuitous, even if they had been the biggest threat to mankind on the planet while free.