Is there a point at which Liberal Democrats should want to leave the European Union?
at 01:26
I used to take it more or less as an article of faith that the EU is good for us. Somehow. And that the Liberal Democrat position of being avowedly critical of some of the ways it operates was a good one - we were the first, I believe, in calling for CAP reform way back just after we joined, for example.
Like so many lofty political projects it has or perhaps could have beneficial aims. I was even rather enthusiastic about the idea of a "United States of Europe", if only it could be constructed as a genuinely liberal federation in which sovereignty rests as much as possible with the individual. I'd even like to have seen it replacing national governments, mainly because I can't think of anything that national governments are good for in a world where the individual is sovereign that would not be better done perhaps with a "light touch" overarching supra-national body.
The current line indeed is that there are some things we just can't handle on our own - issues that naturally do not respect national borders - pollution, global warming, terrorism. Some, I noted during the campaign for the European parliamentary candidates, take a more controversial line (for me at least) that the "fight" against "excesses" by transnational corporations can only be handled at a supranational level. And that the EU is such a model supranational body capable of meeting all these challenges.
All the time of course there have been nay-sayers - on the left by people who see it as a free market capitalist conspiracy (actually I think they mean protectionist but I don't think they understand that any longer on the left) and on the right that it is meddlesome, protectionist (and they mean it correctly) and no longer, if it ever was, centered on freeing trade to make individuals better off. And there is evidence that both have a point - in fact the same point - especially about protectionism.
But for me the reason I'd quite like it to slow down is that we have lost control of our own, national politics - even without Europe interfering, though it certainly helps when they claim things are out of their hands. And, despite the chimera of representation that is the European Parliament if we have no control over our national politicians we have no control over what they do in our name in the other courts of the European project.
So, can anyone sell the whole idea to me again; explain to me how we can possibly make it work for the sovereign individual if we have a great barrier at our national government level not interested in that sovereign individual even in their own countries? It probably goes without saying, as I've done so before, but all the brilliant arguments in the world will do nothing for me if Blair ends up as president. I have not left this sceptered isle now for nearly twenty years, and even then it was just to go to the emerald one, but I will seriously have to consider emigrating to Norway if that happens.
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Comments
This could run and run but to be brief:
I'm all for freedom for workers but the 19th century demonstrated quite clearly that you can't just allow the market to help workers, particularly those on low incomes. There has to be some government intervention to ensure that those least able to help themselves, i.e. agricultural labourers living in draughty dormitories and Shelly washing hair in Abertillery for £3 an hour actually get a minimum salary. Yes, there should be a free market as far as possible but it can never be completely free.
As to a greater France, if you re-read my post you will see that I completely and utterly abhor that prospect, which is why we must be involved in Europe.
Finally (I could go on...) enlargement of the EU has ben the watchword of successive British governments for decades. This clearly and unequivocably demonstrates that our role in Europe is very positive for all its members. If it had been up to France, Italy and Holland all the easter bloc countries would probably still be queuing outside in the cold.
So we should cheer for the inclusive, free trade Europe that we have - after all, we don't have to conduct 60% of our trade with Europe, we do because it is profitable to do so - and the powerful and very positive role Britain has therein.
I feel I should break into song but will restrain myself.
The moment Europe 'cracked' was when our stupid, stupid Tory government decided to back out talks on the creation of the whole edifice based on a brilliant idea in the 1950s. From that moment on it became the inefficient, protectionist Hell which it surely is.
The market should be as free as possible but it will always need a light touch regime to keep it on track occasionally. The 'invisible hand' was, is and ever shall be a myth, albeit a beguiling one.
I remain an optimist for Europe. The 'idea' of Europe is still a good one - as is witnessed by the clamour of states seeking to get in. The promise of our membership remains that we can open up the markets therein even more, which our governments have been quite successful in doing. With the far more free-trade minded easterners on board the prospects are better than ever.
Yes, we need to smash the CAP. Yes, we need to reform from top to bottom the badly failing bureaucracy at the heart of Europe. Europe needs a complete overhaul from Brussels to Talinn. However, we should not throw away the whole edifice just because it is currently not working as it should.
And yes, Ode to Joy is a very inspiring anthem and one I cannot help humming quite a lot. I remain a Europhile and I would urge you to see the benefits of us having partners, not just the myriad problems in Europe.
securing the rights of
securing the rights of workers which British governments would never have dreamt of doing
Which is to say "imposing labour laws which British governments would never have dreamt of imposing".
If those laws had much support in the British electorate you can be sure that many British governments would have done more than dreamt of imposing them.
If they were popular, you would not have to thank the EU for imposing them.
Implicitly, they were imposed against the will of the electorate.
It is not an argument in favour of the EU to say that it overules democracy in the UK.
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Europe
There are countless very good reasons for staying in the EU. It is the most successful international organisation ever and it has secured peace in Europe for decades, not to mention democracy in a number of former dictator ships, including Spain, Greece and Portugal. If that peace is to be maintained we need to be united and strong together.
Putting aside all the high falutin' talk, the EU is also of great benefit to our country, accounting for over 60% of our trade, securing the rights of workers which British governments would never have dreamt of doing, providing a counterweight to the generally well-meaning but often seriously misguided USA, I could go on...
The key reason we must stay in the EU is that, having missed the golden opportunity to shape how it developed in the 1950s, when Britain's stock was at an all-time high among our neighbours, we left it to the French to introduced their arcane, secretive and just-this-side-of-corrupt model of government which is how it has remained. The Tories need to remember that this was their shame, as are most of the British mistakes on Europe since then.
We need to fight tooth and nail to develop a democratic, accountable Europe which continues to deliver the huge benefits to all its citizens without allowing the dynastic political families of some of the other less well developed European democracies to take it over.
Then we need to export this model to other parts of the world to allow them to share in equivalent benefits (North African Union, anyone?). The European model is one of consensus and co-operation between partners, from mighty Germany to tiny Luxembourg. This compares rather well with the American model of take-it-or-leave-it democracy and free trade, which in the form they seek to impose, may not suit every culture.
We are perhaps the most successful country in the world for exporting liberal political ideas and free-market values which underpin freedom and democracy in any system and we need to keep on pushing towards that goal in our own backyard first.
The alternative is a Greater France, which I for one do not fancy...
How's that for a polemic?!